Here are our Tottenham talking points after their dreadful derby defeat at home to Chelsea in the Premier League on Saturday night
Two Tottenham defeats to Chelsea almost exactly two years apart, yet two very different exits from the pitch for the players.
Twenty-four months ago, Spurs were applauded off the turf following their nine-man display against their local rivals which almost brought a 2-2 draw before two late added time goals from Nicolas Jackson gave the scoreline a very different look.
The fans inside the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium did not care about those two late strikes. They had seen all the fight and bravery from the nine men they needed to and they clapped them off the pitch and sang Ange Postecoglou's name.
Fast forward to the current day and the boos rang out for Thomas Frank and his Spurs team after the 17 players involved failed to muster a fraction of the courage and intensity the nine men two years before had.
The Tottenham class of 2025 had laid down with a whimper in a 1-0 defeat that would have been far worse but for the saves of the in-form Guglielmo Vicario.
Frank tried to get his players to applaud the fans they had so disappointed and attempted to tell captain for the day Micky van de Ven and Djed Spence to stop their march towards the dressing room to do so.
The Dutchman just motioned towards the tunnel and Spence blanked his head coach before throwing his arms around in frustration and saying something angrily when he was past him. Frank turned and watched forlornly as both marched off, followed soon after by Destiny Udogie.
If he cannot get this Spurs squad to listen to him then that abandoned look might be the enduring image of his tenure.
It was a moment of immaturity from both defenders, Van de Ven only just elevated into the leadership group, and a bad example to set to the other players that the boss's wishes were not important in that moment and the supporters did not deserve their apologies.
Both players were involved in Chelsea's winning goal with dreadful pieces of play. Spence gave the ball away twice while attempting some unnecessary dribbling outside his own box yet Spurs still got possession back, only for Van de Ven to pass to Xavi Simons instead of getting the ball out of the danger area.
An under-hit pass back from the summer signing left his compatriot with the only option of clearing the ball....surely? No. Bewilderingly, the 24-year-old decided to try to dribble past Moises Caicedo, Chelsea's best player on the day who had just tackled Spence, and the ball was duly lost again. Caicedo poked it to Joao Pedro who gratefully sent it into the net.
Frank was so furious that he kicked a water bottle with all his might towards the dugout.
With that in mind it showed some nerve from Van de Van and Spence to waltz past their manager after that full time whistle when they had more than played their part in a pathetic derby display in front of 61,202 fans who deserved a full refund if they were of a Tottenham persuasion.
In fact there should be some kind of insurance Spurs fans can take out to get their money back after home games if their team continues to be as awful as they have been in N17 over the past year.
Of the 20 Premier League matches played at the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium in the past 12 months, Spurs have won just four and lost 12. If their stadium is a fortress it is one of those little sandcastles that wash away with the merest of waves.
Frank played down the Van de Ven and Spence snub when asked about it by football.london but his expression after it had happened had said more than he ever could publicly.
"All the players are of course frustrated. They would like to do well, they would like to win, they would like to perform well, so I understand that," he said. "I think it's difficult to be consistent in good times and in bad times. That is why I went around to the fans as I did. It is more fun when we win, I can tell you that.
"I understand why you ask the question, but I think that is one of the small issues. We have Micky van de Ven and Djed Spence who are doing everything they can. They perform very well so far this season and everyone is frustrated. We do things in a different way, so I don’t think it is a big problem."
It was a poor look though from his new young leader and the duo had shown a lack of respect to the Dane and the fans.
In truth, the performance on the whole from everyone bar Vicario, Joao Palhinha and Mohammed Kudus as well as the returning Cristian Romero from the bench showed a lack of respect for the occasion.
Frank explained what he said to his team in the dressing room after the debacle of a performance and it came with just 25 words to them.
"Today I said very little because we were all frustrated with the performance and the loss. We felt the pain of the supporters. Hate losing," he said.
"I just said 'we met a better team today, I won't say much, just make sure we stick together in bad times and good times, see you tomorrow'."
The Tottenham fans might not pay to see them tomorrow or Tuesday night to be exact. The crowd had been called on to make a hostile atmosphere for the Blues and they did to begin with but this was a clear example of a team sucking the life out of a stadium with a performance that stank from start to finish.
Boos are rarely helpful in sport but it's difficult to argue against the noise that rang out at half-time and full-time when the performance of the players was so lacklustre and missing any real intensity or endeavour.
The north London side totalled a record low XG for the club since such data began being recorded 13 years ago, with just 0.05 as Frank's team had only three shots all game in a home Premier League derby and only one on target. All three came from Kudus.
"I would say that, of course, hurt massively," admitted Frank. "I've never been in charge of a team that created that little in one game, never. So that, of course, I will look into what we can do to make it better. But I think that's one thing. I think everything is a little bit linked. And today, yeah, we didn't hit the level."
football.london asked Frank if he could understand the boos, given the minimal creativity and intensity in a home derby.
"Yes, 100 per cent. We all sense the frustration and the emotions. That is part of football. It is extremely painful and of course that is part of the job to face you guys now and answer the very good questions when you just are burning inside," he said. "And you like to find solutions, watch the game back and see what went wrong, but I think it’s about trying to stay calm. In general, I think Chelsea were good and we were definitely second best.
"We performed badly. I think we lacked energy and intensity and that freshness we didn’t have that. Then I think the high pressure they came with, I don’t think we solved it well enough even though we worked on it, so that we need to keep working on.
"I think our high pressure, we lacked a little bit in the beginning until we got on top of it and then they went up 1-0 and we are chasing. Then it's a bad circle where we are chasing, lacking intensity and energy and bad decisions."
It feels like Tottenham have gone from one extreme to another once again in their managerial appointments.
That's in the sense that this time that they have gone from a manager in Postecoglou, who like Mauricio Pochettino, always feels the opposition should worry about his team, while Frank appears to worry about what the opposition might do.
It means Frank has less of a consistent template or style, he's more of a chameleon, changing colours to adapt to the environment with each contest. Each match brings a different formation, a different set of players and plenty of tinkering. This game initially began with Spurs having four central midfielders in the centre of the pitch with very little creativity between them.
Tactical flexibility can bring plenty of positives but it can also bring a halt to any momentum in displays as things that work in one game are sometimes set aside in order to stop the opposition in the next.
What Frank's side do have as a theme is the non-negotiables like the pressing and the intensity, both of which are unsustainable though when matches come every three days and injuries mean rotation is not an option in certain departments.
football.london asked Frank about exactly that spanner in the works on Friday ahead of the game and he downplayed it somewhat, but this is definitely a huge test for a manager who has mostly been able to have fresh legs every six or seven days for games at Brentford most seasons.
The Dane needs to get Spurs creating chances because the fanbase is starting to paint him as a set piece-reliant manager. Even that failed on Saturday with a set play XG of zero.
A sure-fire way to lose the support of the Tottenham supporters is to play dull football. Just ask Nuno Espirito Santo.
Frank has a mantra he's held throughout his career and he stated it when he joined the Lilywhites.
"I know the ethos and the history of the club is massive on attacking football, and there is so much attacking talent in the squad," said Frank. "I’m very, very big on principles and what we do in the final third in terms of creating chances.
"I always say this one-liner: if you don’t take risks, you also take risks. So it’s important we take risks. Risk is you need to play forward. If you don’t risk the ball, you can’t create things. We need to be brave."
He asked the Tottenham players to do that on Saturday before the game. Like Van de Ven and Spence though after the encounter, most of them seemingly ignored him.
Everything seems to be on the shoulders of Kudus to create and Chelsea knew that. They doubled up on the Ghana international at every opportunity because he was the only man willing to take those risks.
Tottenham failed Frank in not bringing in more creativity the moment they knew both James Maddison and Dejan Kulusevski would miss so much of the season if not all of it in the former's case.
The head coach said on Friday that he was unsure if Maddison would play a match in this campaign and confirmed that Kulusevski is not yet on the grass with a December return likely.
Spurs lost two huge contributors in the duo, as well as the experience of Son Heung-min, and replaced them only with Xavi, a lightweight 22-year-old who will need time to adjust to the Premier League, as will his fellow PSG graduate Wilson Odobert. You would have thought Tottenham would have learned from signing Bryan Gil about the issues with lightweight attackers in the Premier League but clearly not. Mathys Tel must be wondering what he needs to do to get a start on the left as he offers more strength and direct play.
Rather than worry about the extra numbers when Maddison and Kulusevski return, Tottenham needed to start thinking about the now in the summer transfer window.
There is still time for both Xavi and Odobert to come good. They have the natural talent but they will need to become stronger if they are to succeed in the Premier League.
On Saturday, Xavi was forced into the action just seven minutes in after Lucas Bergvall was left stumbling around in front of the referee after taking a powerful ball to the head.
The teenager needed to come off, despite his protests which included pushing two members of the medical staff away from him. If Bergvall is found to have concussion with further tests this week then he could face up to 12 days out of action.
Xavi came on for the Swede on Saturday and other than a couple of nice touches and turns the Dutchman was a passenger against the team he was linked with all summer. The substitute was eventually substituted and for a team that buys players for the present like Chelsea, on this evidence they would likely have not been too distressed at missing out on the £51million midfielder.
"There's a reason why we didn't start him, of course. I think he's played two starts, short turnaround," said Frank of Xavi. "Also, that energy and freshness I talked about, played 90 minutes Wednesday night. So that's why we decided that, and then he played 70 minutes here. So I think that was nothing. It's just because it looks different when you come on after three minutes and get subbed off."
The Dutchman is careless in possession in a league that is unforgiving with such errors.
When asked about Xavi's regular moments of handing the ball to the opposition in dangerous areas in recent games and whether it frustrated him, Frank said: "I think when players make mistakes on the pitch, if they lose a ball or they miss a pass, of course I can get irritated.
"In general, I'm not talking about a specific situation, but that's part of football. How many times have you seen a player miss a pass or do something? That happens. And that can be flow, that can be confidence, that can be everything, whatever it is. So mistakes are part of football."
There will be no panic inside Tottenham about Frank's tenure at this point. His team are fourth in the Premier League thanks to their away record and the tightness of the league because of how inconsistent most teams are in the division aside from that club down the road.
However, four of the five Premier League wins Frank's men picked up came against sides currently in the bottom six in the table and the other against an inconsistent Manchester City side.
The football needs to get better. Frank's predecessor Postecoglou found that injuries and a lack of creative players can only be used as an excuse for a finite amount of time before nobody will listen to it any more.
Frank is an affable character and he kept his composure in his post-match conference when many of his contemporaries would have taken aim at the players or snapped back at reporters.
The Dane is a clever manager and perhaps that chameleon nature could end up being his salvation. He reinvented his Brentford team repeatedly across different seasons, either as a goalscoring machine or a pragmatic force and it is the former that he must unlock at Tottenham.
The difference is that he had time in his previous job that he will not be afforded in his new one.
For consistently poor results at home, where the bulk of the paying fans will watch his work, will only end one way with the Spurs cycle of doom grabbing him and hurling him out as it has done to so many others over the years.
With the final question of his press conference, Frank was asked what his message was to the Tottenham fans to give them confidence that his team will start to create chances again and play the football he promised when he arrived.
"Couple of things. Today of course everyone will be frustrated. I'd say we have 24 hours and then we need to look forward again. Today was one snapshot that didn't look good," he said.
"I think there have definitely been other spells that have been better. There's no doubt, and I keep saying it, that we have a front four that is new. We have to build together with short turnarounds in games. We'll do that. I'm not in doubt that will happen. I think every team I've coached has scored a lot of goals. It will happen again in the future here."
It needs to happen sooner rather than later for Frank because the future is rarely a luxury Spurs managers get to enjoy.