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Roberto De Zerbi's comment speaks volumes as Tottenham job conditions laid out

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Roberto De Zerbi's comment speaks volumes as Tottenham job conditions laid out - Football London
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Former Brighton and Marseille boss Roberto De Zerbi has been linked with replacing Igor Tudor as Tottenham Hotspur manager

Roberto De Zerbi continues to be linked with the manager’s job at Tottenham Hotspur, and his past comments hint an appointment could be possible. Spurs are currently battling to avoid relegation from the Premier League, but do have a Champions League last-16 tie against Atletico Madrid on the horizon.

Igor Tudor was appointed by Tottenham as the club’s interim manager until the end of the season, but has lost all three matches in charge in north London in the Premier League.

This run of form leaves Spurs in 16th place in the top-flight standings and just one point above the relegation zone.

As a result, there has been speculation surrounding Tudor’s future at the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium, despite the club only confirming his appointment last month.

De Zerbi’s name was mentioned in the report in The Telegraph, which claimed that Tudor’s future at Tottenham is in doubt, with the former Brighton boss mentioned as a potential successor.

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The 46-year-old has been out of work since leaving Marseille earlier this year, and was heavily linked with the vacant Tottenham role before Tudor was appointed.

The report claims that De Zerbi is a contender to be Tottenham manager from the summer, but only if the club remains in the Premier League and avoids relegation.

It was after De Zerbi left Brighton almost two years ago that he outlined his feelings on returning to a Premier League, with Manchester United also linked with a potential appointment in the past.

"There isn't any club – no one offered [anything]. At the moment, nothing," De Zerbi told Match of the Day at the end of the 2023/24 season.

"I hope to work in the Premier League again. I don't know where or when. But it was an honour to work in the Premier League."

This is not the only time that De Zerbi has addressed his future and rumours that Tottenham could be a destination, with the manager opening up on the speculation during his time at Brighton.

"I have a long contract and I am happy to work here [Brighton],” De Zerbi said during his time on the south coast.

"I'm enjoying working with these players, and I'm pleased with their performance. I cannot ask for more from them.

“We have a dream, and we know very well [that can] write a new history for the club. For us, that is very important and a very nice challenge."

Tottenham shown what they're missing as Luka Vuskovic breaks 55-year record

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Tottenham's teenage central defender Luka Vuskovic has starred on loan in Germany with Hamburger SV this season

Tottenham defender Luka Vuskovic is continuing to make headlines in Germany following an excellent loan spell in the Bundesliga with Hamburg.

Much has been said about the Croatia international in recent weeks as he's reportedly attracting transfer interest from European heavyweights Barcelona and Bayern Munich, respectively.

Now Vuskovic has added another string to his bow after scoring a penalty in this afternoon's Bundesliga fixture away to Wolfsburg.

The 19-year-old's goalscoring ability is certainly nothing new; he struck seven times on loan at Westerlo in Belgium last season and also scored three times in 14 appearances for Polish outfit Radomiak Radom.

But what's remarkable is that Vuskovic has now written a piece of history, becoming the first teenager to score a penalty for Hamburg in some 55 years.

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It's his fifth goal of the season in the Bundesliga which is why HSV are so desperate to keep him at the club on loan for another season.

Interestingly, the German side won another penalty in the second half but this time Jean-Luc Dompe stepped up from 12-yards, ahead of Vuskovic, and also slotted home.

Vuskovic has already outlined his desire to play alongside his brother Mario, who will be available again from November following the conclusion of his doping ban.

Last week, following the 1-0 home defeat against Bayer Leverkusen, Vuskovic threw his boots in anger at the substitutes' bench.

He later received praise from HSV head coach Merlin Polzin, who felt the player's fury highlighted his winning mentality.

Whatever happens between now and the end of the campaign, including in north London as Spurs battle to beat the drop, Vuskovic is set to return to Tottenham in the summer.

That's because Hamburg do not have a permanent transfer option, so even if they decide to try and re-sign the Croat on loan, they will have to negotiate with Tottenham.

There's already a sense he may have offers too as a number of clubs are monitoring his progress closely.

Though there are also doubts over Cristian Romero and Micky van de Ven's long-term Tottenham futures, so Spurs might opt to keep Vuskovic if either of those players depart the club.

More pressingly, Igor Tudor's side do not even know what division they will be playing in next season, so they are unlikely to rush into any decision over Vuskovic's future.

He is also set to represent the Croatia national team at this summer's World Cup finals which will help him build even more experience.

The young Tottenham players set to be hit hard if club is relegated

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It's time for a brand new episode of Talking Tottenham with our Spurs correspondents Alasdair Gold and Ryan Taylor as they discuss the club's problems

The threat of relegation hangs over Tottenham but it's not just about what it means for the players on the pitch.

Spurs currently sit just a point above the Premier League drop zone after results elsewhere went against them this week before their own defeat at home against Crystal Palace on Thursday night. Igor Tudor has been tasked with keeping the north London club up but has thus far lost all three of his opening games, all of them derbies.

Relegation would be disastrous for Tottenham with a reported £250million in lost revenue if they go down and many staff inside the club, across various departments, are fearing for their jobs with mass cutbacks expected if the Lilywhites were to drop into the Championship.

Much has been made of the wage reduction clauses built into many of the first team players' contracts in case of relegation, with most of them up to 50 per cent. However, what might have been overlooked within that is that many of the Spurs' younger players, including those put on loan, are also believed to have such clauses in their professional deals, meaning they will see their wages slashed if the north London outfit were to drop out of the Premier League.

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Our Tottenham correspondents Alasdair Gold and Ryan Taylor spoke about just how devastating relegation would be for the club and those within it and what needs to happen for Spurs to avoid it in the latest episode of their podcast Talking Tottenham.

Tottenham top contender emerges as crisis club begin 'replacement process'

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Tottenham Hotspur sit one point clear of the bottom three as Premier League relegation pressure ramps up

Tottenham Hotspur are interested in appointing former Crystal Palace supremo Dougie Freedman as their new sporting director, according to reports.

Spurs have been searching for a replacement chief since Fabio Paratici left the club in January. BBC Sport has reported that Freedman is a person of interest in their hierarchical restructure despite concerns over interim head coach Igor Tudor.

Thursday's 3-1 defeat to Crystal Palace left the North London club mired in relegation danfer after their city rivals came from behind to inflict a third-straight defeat on the Croatian. Dominic Solanke had given Spurs the lead but Mickey van de Ven's red card turned the encounter on its head as Palace netted three goals in the latter stages of the first-half to compound the misery.

OPINION

Freedman has been credited as the person behind the successful period at Selhurst Park that saw Michael Olise, Eberechi Eze, Marc Guehi and Adam Wharton make the move to south London. It has been said that he isn't the only option, however, with Paul Winstanley and Tiago Pinto on their radar.

Spurs sit one point clear of the bottom three as they stare down the barrel of their first relegation since 1977. West Ham United have turned around their fortunes under Nuno Espirito Santo with Crysencio Summerville's winner helping them move closer to safety with their 1-0 win over Fulham.

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Elliot Anderson salvaged a crucial point for Nottingham Forest which leaves them outside the relegation zone but both the Nottinghamshire side and the Hammers are breathing down Spurs' neck as both sides look up, while Tudor's side are looking over their shoulder following a run of 11 matches without a win.

The Telegraph has reported that former Brighton & Hove Albion manager Roberto De Zerbi is a possible option to be installed as manager at the end of the season.

It has been said that talks have been held about appointing the Italian if Spurs avoid relegation. However, their focus is now on Premier League survival with a difficult run to come, starting with a trip to Liverpool - the one match Van de Ven will serve a suspension for.

Amid the difficult run, the former Juventus head coach says his belief has increased following their display against Palace - despite fans steaming for the exits in the first-half.

He said: "I understand the fans, they wanted more. We also wanted more. The red card changed everything.

"It might sound strange, I believe more after this game than I believed before. I saw something.

"I need to choose the right guys because the boat is going in the direction that I need to go, and who is in the boat can stay, otherwise, [they] can leave the boat.

"When the other players come back, I'm sure we'll have a good team and come back. It's not easy to accept the moment we are in now."

Xavi Simons names the two Tottenham wonderkids to watch out for and best Spurs player in training

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Xavi Simons names the two Tottenham wonderkids to watch out for and best Spurs player in training - Football London
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The Tottenham midfielder has been speaking about his team-mates and the young players coming through at the north London club

Xavi Simons believes that Archie Gray is the best Tottenham player in training and the most surprising at the club and has named two Spurs youngsters to watch out for.

The Dutchman joined Spurs from RB Leipzig in the summer in a £51million deal and has shown glimpses of the ability that saw him come through the youth ranks at Barcelona and PSG. The 22-year-old will be hoping to make a big impact in Tottenham's Champions League last 16 tie at Atletico Madrid on Tuesday night and in helping the north London outfit move away from the Premier League danger zone in the weeks ahead.

During a quickfire Q&A with Pro:Direct Soccer, the Spurs midfielder was asked various questions about his time in N17 and his team-mates.

He revealed that 19-year-old Gray is the best in training at the club and also the player who has surprised him the most since he arrived at Tottenham.

"I really like how he plays and I think he's going to be a really good midfielder," said the Netherlands international.

Xavi named 17-year-old academy products Luca Williams-Barnett and Jun'ai Byfield as two youngsters to look out for at the Premier League club in the years ahead and the currently injured Mohammed Kudus as the most underrated player within the building. He named his international team-mate and Arsenal defender Jurrien Timber as the opponent he has most enjoyed battling with this season.

And what do his Spurs team-mates call Xavi? He would only give away one of the two monikers he has within the club.

"They call me Xa or they call me another word, but this I cannot say, so I will keep it for myself!" he said.

On which Tottenham players have looked after him since he arrived in N17, he added: "I would say a lot of guys, especially Micky [Van de Ven] and all the other guys that I played against like Mathys Tel, Djed Spence, Kevin Danso, [Randal] Kolo Muani, everyone."

Xavi also gets through a lot of boots in a season, admitting: "If I'm honest, I have a lot of boots, but I try not to change the boots a lot. But in a season, I don't know, maybe 40, 50, something like that. I keep the special ones as well."

Alan Shearer predicts Tottenham's bold next move as relegation warning rings true

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After Tottenham Hotspur suffered their latest embarrassing setback of 2026, Igor Tudor and his players have been given a firm warning by Alan Shearer

Alan Shearer believes Tottenham Hotspur will sack Igor Tudor if they continue to slip further into the relegation battle. Crystal Palace's 3-1 away victory over the north Londoners has all but confirmed Spurs' status as relegation battlers.

They are now only one point away from 18th placed West Ham United, who are beginning to string together results at a tentative pace. Tudor has lost three matches out of three since he was temporarily appointed after the sacking of Thomas Frank, but it appears the club still has faith in the Croatian.

However, results are showing no signs of improvement and with the club facing the prospect of tumbling out of the top flight for the first time since 1977, alarm bells are ringing at the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium. Shearer believes this may prompt the club to sack Tudor out of desperation.

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Speaking to Betfair, Shearer said: "I could see spurs getting rid of Igor Tudor before the end of the season. It wouldn't be a surprise to me with that club.

"I've said all I can on Spurs, there's a real-life possibility that Spurs could be relegated and can you imagine that stadium in the Championship. Somehow, from somewhere, they're going to have to get some unity, because On Thursday they just looked as if they were done.

"Unless that improves big style, then they're going down, because at least the others, at least Forest went to City and showed some fight. West Ham have dragged all of them back into it.

"It would be one the biggest Premier League shocks if they were to go down. I mean, what would be bigger, Leicester winning it, or Spurs being relegated? I guess it's on a similar scale.

"It would be a shock to the system. It would, without doubt, be one of the biggest shocks of all time. I suppose, with that training ground, with that stadium. I mean, it's just unthinkable for them. I mean, you can imagine what it would do to them as a Football Club."

The fixtures are not getting any easier for Spurs. Up next is a Champions League round of 16 away clash against Atletico Madrid on Tuesday March 10, which is swiftly followed by a daunting away clash against Liverpool the following Sunday.

In that period, 17th placed Nottingham Forest face Fulham at home and an increasingly more confident West Ham United host Manchester City. A Tottenham defeat coupled with results elsewhere will bring them closer to those dreaded dotted lines and potentially drag them under.

Looking at the rest of the campaign, Shearer believes Spurs are definitely relegation contenders. He added: "Tottenham Hotspur are a mess and if they go down, they deserve to go down. Spurs have a big chance of getting relegated now.

"When I saw them against Newcastle, I said that from that night onwards, I thought there's a real prospect of them being relegated, because I just didn't see any fight.

"I didn't see any desire or any attitude from the Spurs players, particularly in that first half on Thursday, but I think last Thursday encapsulates what they are, they're a mess. I mean, both on and off the pitch.

"You can tell confidence is fragile. I know they've got injuries, but everyone has injuries. And if they go down, they deserve to go down because it hasn't just happened this season.

"It was last season when they finished, and I mean, we all thought that can't happen again, but it has, so they can only blame themselves."

I was inside Tottenham Hotspur Stadium and what I saw furious fans do sums up the mess

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Tottenham have been dragged into the relegation scrap and fans were left furious during the 3-1 defeat by Crystal Palace on Thursday night

Igor Tudor was recruited to make a difference. Tudor has certainly achieved that - though not in the manner the club had envisaged. They appear even more troubled now than when he assumed control.

Tottenham's caretaker manager has suffered defeat in all three matches under his stewardship, edging the club nearer to the drop and already losing the faith of the supporters.

Fans departed in significant numbers at the interval, whilst those who remained voiced their displeasure as the team self-destructed before their eyes.

Tottenham went from leading 1-0 after 34 minutes to trailing 3-1 at the break following the dismissal of stand-in captain and star performer Micky van de Ven.

The perpetually upbeat stadium announcer Paul Coyte attempted to rally supporters at half-time: "This game is a long way from over."

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Few appeared convinced. Little surprise, then, that frustrated supporters even directed their anger towards club analysts positioned in the stands. "Analyse that - we're f***ing going down."

The sentiment was difficult to dispute. Fans subsequently hurled abuse at executives in the directors' box before the second period commenced, as the atmosphere grew increasingly hostile.

But at what stage do Tottenham acknowledge that the impact manager - who had triumphed in all his opening fixtures at his previous five clubs - must be replaced if Spurs are to preserve their top-flight status?

Tottenham sit just a point clear of the relegation places, whilst West Ham and Nottingham Forest are demonstrating considerably more resilience and resolve to escape danger. Spurs were abysmal, directionless and the players appeared as dejected as the fans.

It seems the squad have lost faith in the manager. They looked utterly exhausted. Tudor has attempted every solution and nothing has proved effective. On this occasion, Tudor made four alterations, even benching the club's £34m January acquisition Conor Gallagher alongside Xavi Simons, Yves Bissouma, and Radu Dragusin.

Souza, Kevin Danso, Pape Sarr, and Mathys Tel were brought into the starting XI. Brazilian youngster Souza caught Daniel Munoz with a heavy challenge, forcing the defender off injured in what appeared a significant setback as Nathaniel Clyne entered as his replacement.

However, Palace were disciplined, having regained momentum under Oliver Glasner, and thought they'd scored when Ismaila Sarr's effort deflected in off Pedro Porro, only for VAR to rule it out for the narrowest of offside calls.

That decision felt incredibly cruel. And four minutes later, Tottenham took the lead.

Archie Gray - amongst the few Spurs players to perform creditably - raced down the right flank, pulled the ball back for Dominic Solanke to finish clinically.

The stadium erupted. There was renewed optimism and Spurs supporters began to dream. But that optimism lasted merely four minutes.

Sarr burst into the Spurs penalty area, van de Ven almost instinctively hauled him down and referee Andy Madley showed no hesitation in brandishing a red card for denying a clear goalscoring opportunity and pointing to the spot. It mirrored Palace defender Maxence Lacroix's dismissal at Manchester United on Sunday, with Sarr composedly converting from the spot to draw the visitors level after 40 minutes.

Palace snatched the lead in the opening minute of first half stoppage time. Mathys Tel's careless pass surrendered possession, Evann Guessand performed impressively before Adam Wharton threaded through Jorgen Strand Larsen to find the net.

In the seventh minute of first half added time, matters deteriorated further. Wharton executed a delightful pass splitting Pedro Porro and Joao Palhinha, allowing Sarr to dart through and clip the ball beyond Guglielmo Vicario.

To their credit, Spurs demonstrated genuine resilience in the second period as the ten men battled valiantly and refused to capitulate, but the damage had been done and recovery proved impossible.

Kudus, Udogie, Bergvall – Tottenham injury latest and return dates for relegation run-in

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Kudus, Udogie, Bergvall – Tottenham injury latest and return dates for relegation run-in - Football London
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Tottenham are in a dire situation in the Premier League and they've not had much luck with injuries either, but some key players are expected back soon

Tottenham have a staggering 11 players currently unavailable in their fight to avoid relegation from the Premier League. Igor Tudor's side currently sit fifth from bottom and are just one point away from slipping into the drop zone following defeat to Crystal Palace.

Spurs had actually started well and initially went in front, only to capitulate towards the end of the first half as they conceded three goals following Micky van de Ven's red card. He will now miss their next league clash against Liverpool, but Cristian Romero is set to return from a four-match ban.

In terms of injury comebacks, three Spurs stars are likely to be back available for that trip to Anfield, with at least one of those expected back for the Champions League clash against Atletico Madrid. With a lengthy international break on the horizon, several injured players could be back available in early April.

With all of that being said, football.london has taken a detailed look at Spurs' current injury list and when those absent stars could return

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Mohammed Kudus

Kudus has been out with a major quad injury since the 1-1 draw against Sunderland back in early January. He is slated to return after the March international break, but that will likely depend on how his recovery has progressed.

Possible return date: Sunderland (A) - April 12

Lucas Bergvall

Bergvall suffered an ankle issue in the Champions League win over Borussia Dortmund earlier this year. He is another expected to be back following the upcoming domestic pause.

Possible return date: Sunderland (A) - April 12

Destiny Udogie

Udogie was forced off with a hamstring problem against Manchester United last month. The Italy international was confirmed out for "four to five weeks" in early February, and thus he is due to return soon.

Possible return date: Nottingham Forest (H) - March 22

Djed Spence

Tudor ruled Spence out of facing Palace, but was able to issue a positive update on that calf issue that has been plaguing him for the last few weeks.

What Tudor said: "Djed is out, he's not ready for the game. We hope for the Champions League [vs Atletico in Madrid].

Possible return date: Atletico Madrid (A) - March 10

Radu Dragusin

After three consecutive Premier League starts, Dragusin was absent from the squad that faced Palace because of a minor knock.

Possible return date: Atletico Madrid (A) - March 10

Ben Davies

Davies has not played for Tottenham since mid-January after going off against West Ham United. He was forced to undergo ankle surgery, with the hope being that the Wales international is set to return after the international break.

Possible return date: Sunderland (A) - April 12

James Maddison

Maddison ruptured his anterior cruciate ligament during pre-season and is working hard to return before the season concludes.

Possible return date: Aston Villa (A) - May 2/3

Dejan Kulusevski

Kulusevski is also recovering from a long-term knee injury, which was suffered back in May 2025. It is currently unclear whether he will play this season.

Possible return date: N/A

Rodrigo Bentancur

Bentancur picked up a bad hamstring injury in early 2026 and is in a race against time to return before the end of May.

Possible return date: Aston Villa (A) - May 2/3

Wilson Odobert

Odobert ruptured his ACL against Newcastle and is therefore not expected back until later this year.

Italian media's devastating reaction to Spurs and Igor Tudor after Crystal Palace defeat

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Tottenham's nightmare continued under Igor Tudor on Thursday as they suffered yet another defeat in the Premier League

An Italian media outlet has given its grim assessment of Tottenham's situation under Igor Tudor. Thursday’s 3-1 Premier League defeat to Crystal Palace marked the Croatian manager’s third loss in as many games since being appointed interim boss last month.

Spurs went from 1-0 up after 34 minutes to 3-1 down at half-time following their stand-in captain Micky van de Wen's sending off. Fans inside the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium left in their droves at the break before boos rang out after the final whistle, marking the lowest point in a horrendous season domestically.

But the consequences of a fifth defeat in a row and an 11th game without a win were even more severe, given the Lilywhites are now 16th in the table and just one point clear of the relegation zone. There is now a growing feeling that Spurs could potentially drop out of the top flight for the first time in 49 years, with Nottingham Forest and West Ham in better form.

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It appears the gravity of Tottenham's worrying form has even been noticed in Italy. The country's famous pink newspaper, La Gazzetta dello Sport, delivered a damning message after Thursday's defeat by writing about how poor decision-making at the top has led to this point. The report also highlighted the daunting task the under-pressure Tudor faces.

The paper wrote: "The dismissal of Thomas Frank three games ago, likely months late for a manager hired from Brentford who never seemed to have the right mentality for a big club, hasn't changed matters much.

"Igor Tudor, a surprise signing, has come on strong against Spurs just as he did last season at Juventus and the season before at Lazio, but not even his brisk, to-the-point manner has been able to shake up a team adrift, one that seems to have long since lost its way to respectability on the pitch."

The publication went on to call out Tottenham's ongoing catalogue of defensive errors, having conceded a whopping 46 goals in the league this season. It also accused the players and club of no longer doing the bare minimum required to remain in the Premier League.

It added: "Being second in the Forbes ranking of the most profitable football clubs in 2026, with a valuation of €2.84billion, or having the most beautiful stadium in the Premier League, alone won't be enough to avoid Tottenham's nightmare of a first relegation since 1977.

"Even Tudor's charisma, already under scrutiny after their third defeat in three, risks not being enough. The boos, a mixture of fear and disappointment, from the fans who stayed until the end against Palace won't be enough."

The outlet claimed Tottenham must start daring and believing again in order to win games - something they have "stopped doing". Tudor, meanwhile, insisted there were promising signs after the game.

He explained: "I will tell you now, maybe it will sound strange, but I believe more after this game than I believed before. I saw something. I need to choose the right guys because the boat is going in the direction that I want to go and needs to go and whoever is in the boat can stay.

"Otherwise, they can leave the boat. So, when the other players will come back, I’m sure we will have a good team and the victories will come back. It’s not easy to accept the moment where we are now but it is how it is."

What happens if Tottenham are relegated but win the Champions League?

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Tottenham Hotspur are one point clear of the Premier League relegation zone but remain in the Champions League for the knockout stages

As Tottenham Hotspur supporters grapple with the genuine prospect of relegation, the north London club find themselves on the verge of making unwanted history.

A record of 29 points from 29 league games leaves them just one point above the bottom three, but they have simultaneously booked their place in the Champions League knockout rounds and could yet win that competition while also dropping down to the second tier.

Spurs got through the league phase of Europe's premier competition with an identical record to the one they produced in last season's Europa League. On that occasion they finished fourth in the league phase with five victories, two draws and one defeat before ultimately lifting that trophy in Bilbao in May.

Last season's European campaign came at a cost to Spurs' domestic form, though they never faced the level of jeopardy they currently endure. It's a different story this term, though, with 17th placed Nottingham Forest and West Ham in 18th both just a point behind Igor Tudor's team.

Should the unthinkable occur and Spurs drop into the Championship, it would not prevent them from competing in Europe next season. If they clinch a second European trophy in as many seasons, they would become the first club to compete in both the Champions League and Championship during the same campaign.

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It would be a first, but second-tier teams have been involved in other European competitions before. Most notably, Wigan Athletic won the FA Cup in 2013 but suffered relegation in the same campaign, leaving incoming manager Owen Coyle to juggle a Europa League group stage run alongside what ultimately proved to be a fruitless promotion bid.

The Latics weren't a one-off, either. Birmingham City also embarked on a Europa League campaign after pairing their League Cup triumph with relegation in 2011, whilst Ipswich Town secured UEFA Cup qualification through the fair play rankings in 2002 despite dropping out of the Premier League, progressing to the second round.

Spurs wouldn't face a ban from Europe even if relegated, and a Champions League trophy would no doubt ease a lot of the pain. However, the unlikely scenario would place Spurs in the uncomfortable position of juggling the expanded European format alongside the notoriously demanding 46-match league schedule.

Their survival remains in their own hands, though, with their next Premier League fixture seeing them host Liverpool while relegation rivals Forest and West Ham take on Fulham and Manchester City respectively. Before that, Tudor's side make the trip to Atletico Madrid's Estadio Metropolitano for the first leg of their Champions League round of 16 clash.

They've already faced Spanish opposition once this term, in their European curtain-raiser. Villarreal were the opponents on that occasion, with an own goal from Luiz Junior settling the tie in Spurs' favour

Atletico were required to navigate a play-off tie against Club Brugge, recovering from a 3-3 draw away from home to claim a commanding 4-1 victory on their own patch to advance. This time around, it is Spurs who hold the benefit of hosting the second leg — though just how significant that advantage proves, given their current struggles, remains very much open to debate.